Health, Shoes, and Entrepreneurship with Melker Svard

In this conversation, Ryan and Melker Svard discuss the impact of modern footwear on foot health and overall well-being. Melker shares insights from a study conducted in Sri Lanka, which found a correlation between modern shoe wearing and deformed feet. They discuss the importance of the arch in foot function and the potential performance benefits of fully functioning feet in athletics. Melker also shares the journey of creating Wide Footwear and the challenges and rewards of starting a business. They emphasize the importance of enjoying life and pleasure in maintaining good health. In this conversation, Melker Svard discusses the importance of balancing work and relationships. He highlights the loneliness often experienced by biohackers who prioritize their work over personal connections. Melker emphasizes the need to strive for balance in all aspects of life, rather than sacrificing one area for success in another. He also explores the cost of success and the sacrifices that may be required. Melker shares lessons learned in starting a business, including the importance of due diligence and the value of practical experience over theoretical learning. He concludes by emphasizing the importance of staying true to one's mission and not compromising on core values.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background
00:24 Studying the Effects of Modern Footwear
03:38 The Impact of Deformed Feet
06:24 The Relationship Between Flat Feet and Genetics
08:10 The Go-To Method and Primal Movement
09:21 The Importance of the Arch in Foot Function
10:33 The Performance Component of Foot Deformities
11:41 The Potential of Fully Functioning Feet in Athletics
13:19 The History of Narrow Toe Boxes in Shoes
15:22 The Journey of Creating Wide Footwear
16:46 Marketing and Growth Strategies
20:32 The Serendipitous Inspiration for Wide Footwear
22:35 The Challenges and Rewards of Starting a Business
24:17 The Launch and Marketing of New Products
27:18 The Vision for Wide Footwear's Leather Sneaker
29:45 The Importance of Enjoying Life and Pleasure
36:09 The Benefits of Saunas and Grounding
38:29 The Role of Stress and Enjoyment in Health
42:12 Balancing Work and Relationships
43:16 The Loneliness of Biohackers
44:13 Striving for Balance in Life
45:12 The Cost of Success
46:27 The Importance of Prioritizing
48:43 Struggling with Balance
49:06 Lessons Learned in Starting a Business
50:35 The Importance of Due Diligence
52:55 Learning Through Experience
54:17 The Limitations of Self-Help Books
55:19 Finding Purpose and Fulfillment
58:01 Staying True to the Mission

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Transcript

Microphone (4- Samson Q2U Microphone)-2: 0:00

What's up guys. Welcome back to the Alchemist library podcast today on the show I'm joined with milker, milker has a shoe company called wide. Um, specifically a minimalist shoe company who has some, the coolest barefoot shoes out there. Highly recommended you guys check that out. Today we talk. Foot health. We talk health in general, we talk business building. So it's a fun one. I'll leave it at that and catch you guys inside peace.

Ryan: 0:49

Milker. Thank you so much for being here today, bro.

melker: 0:51

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

Ryan: 0:54

So I saw you were doing a bunch of traveling, some community type of type of stuff. What were you doing there?

melker: 1:01

Yeah. So we spent a full month in Sri Lanka, actually with, uh, our team and with another organization called my foot function. And we basically wanted to answer the question, does modern footwear So we wanted to basically just study a thousand people, compare people who've grown up wearing shoes to people who have possibly never worn shoes or even just worn sandals. And, uh, yeah, so that means that the biggest study done before this was have been, you know, in the hundreds, maybe 250, 300, and they've also compared different ethnic groups, which means that some people would be like, okay. Yeah, this tribe, African tribe has. Has cool feet and all but you're comparing them to people from Switzerland. It's not really a fair compensate I mean, you know comparison so we said, okay, let's just cut this is, you know Compare the same ethnic group do quadruple the size of the study and just see what we find

Ryan: 2:02

And what did you guys

melker: 2:03

end up finding? So the data is still being compiled should be done in the next few weeks, but I've seen some snippets of it. And of course I have a lot of anecdotal evidence in my, in my head, but I think the, the biggest thing for me is that it was very clear that, um, we talk a lot about the big toe in, in our, in our, um, field, you know, the angle of the big toe, it was very, very clear. And I know also that it's statistically significant now that I've looked at the initial data that modern shoe wearing does. Absolutely have a correlation to, um, deformed helix valgus angle of the big toe. And that, that's really our hypothesis. So it feels great to have proved that, um, I'm, uh, and then of course, just being there, seeing it, you know, seeing the difference between, for example, I'll tell you a quick story. Uh, we, one day we went first to study like 40 teachers up in the mountain, a very poor area. And, uh, all the, all the teachers had very, very. Tight, strict shoes and almost all of them had a quite deformed foot. Um, very much like you would see in the U S or in Sweden, like I'm in. Uh, and then we went to a police station right after that, where, you know, these These policemen worked very hard. They had to wear these, uh, specific type of shoe for 12 hours a day, and they almost all had a deformed, uh, you know, outer toes, the, the, the pinky toe and the big toe that gets affected first. Right? And, um, and then we went on the next day, went to a tea plantation where, you know, the, the worker, some of them had never ever wore shoes in their whole life. Um, and they just had these like zero deformities, just, uh, perfect functional feet, walked around barefoot all the time, climbing trees, walk in the fields. Uh, so it's just very interesting to see that contrast because, you know, they could have just been. Interchanged, right? It's just about their, their environment. So I think seeing that with your own eyes, something that we think that we already knew is really cool, actually.

Ryan: 4:14

Yeah. It's fascinating. I've seen the, like the picture of like LeBron James's feet. Have you seen that from all the years of basketball history? I mean, his like big toe is pointed totally left towards his pinky toe and his pinky toe and whatever the toes are next to the pinky toe. They're like overlapping each other, just from the, tight, toe box. But what, what are some of the. Like effects of that. Like, how does that, how does the deformed foot affect us? Yeah.

melker: 4:44

So a lot of people will kind of forget the foot, right? We, we, we think like, let's just take it in the shoe and let the shoe do the work and we just forget about it. And then we go and we train leg day, we train our biceps and we train our back and you know, the foot is just forgotten. Because I think it's mostly because we can't see it because we put it in stuff all the time. You know, we put it in our shoe and it's there. And of course the big shoe manufacturers know how to make perfect shoes for us. I mean, it's obvious, but unfortunately that's not really the case. And I think the easiest way to think about it is to see the foot as the root of the body. You know, think of it as the base of your whole posture, your whole biomechanics. So, which means if. Similar to a tree, if you start messing with the roots, that's going to, that's going to affect all, I mean, all the branches and everything. And, uh, if you, simple demonstration is just like, if you, if you, uh, place your big toe in its correct position, which is actually a little bit different. You know, pointing away from the other toes. So there's a gap between the big toe and the second toe that will actually make your arch look pretty damn good. Like that's going to happen. But if you, as soon as you push that big toe towards the other toes. You can almost feel, you can try this yourself. You can feel how that arch will start to at least have a tendency to collapse. And that, and that, that movement is really what happens every time we put our feet into modern shoes, like, because they're just formed that way. The big toe has to be, since they are symmetrical, they are, it's just going to be pointing towards the other two toes automatically. So if the. If the arch starts to collapse, which will happen over time, at least, and that's going to affect your knees, that's going to affect your hips, that's going to affect your back and then, you know, maybe you have a, you have pain in your shoulder 3 years later, and I have no idea why it's so it's, it's really about a forgotten piece of our body that we, you know, and that it causes chain chain reactions throughout the whole chain, which is very interesting.

Ryan: 6:58

So you hear so many people say like, I have a flat, I flat feet and then obviously that contributes to back pain and then other things like you just described. So with a flat foot, is that obviously there's a genetic component there, but is that solely just because of the nature of the modern world? Like, can you, you have a tangible effect on your arch, right? Like you can, by wearing. Or by being barefoot or by wearing barefoot shoes, improve that arch significantly.

melker: 7:27

Yeah. I mean, so I work closely with, uh, as I said, this organization called my foot function, who's one of the leaders in this space that we also did the study together with. And, you know, they've had their foot clinic for a decade, I think. And the amount of images that they've shown me and, Uh, that I've heard from their clinical work as well. Uh, is this, it's just quite remarkable how a lot of these deformities, you know, flat feet, Halix valgus, uh, Halix valgus is when the big toe is like pointing a lot towards the other toes, uh, how they are, are very, very much preventable, but also reversible, uh, with the right exercises and the right footwear. So, yeah, I mean, the flat feet are very, very common. Um, But we, we saw like almost none in Sri Lanka. So it's, I would, I would say that it's very, very much about environments and very, very little about genetics personally, but I mean, I don't have, I don't know, I can't really back that up, but that's what I've anecdotally seen and learned.

Ryan: 8:38

Have you heard of like these, I think they call it like the go to method or primal movement. Yeah. You heard of this stuff? It's interesting because like they talk about, inside ankle bone low and like these people who are constantly because of their flat feet, because of just the nature of like sitting all day and stuff, they, their pressure is on the inside Inside, like, the big toe type of area. and then that's causing all this pressure on their knees. and then that's leading to, like, injuries and all these other type of, ailments. But when you have that super high arch, all of the, a lot of those. Knee issues and things from the additional pressure on that inside, part of your foot kind of go wet. It's really interesting. And, um, I always looked at it from the perspective of like sitting and the role that that had played on it. and I didn't really think about it in terms of the arch, but I mean, if you just look at the structure of the foot by nature, if you have a high arch, you're going to be sitting more on the outside part of your, part of

melker: 9:44

your feet. Yeah. And also, I mean, if you think about the arch. So the foot, when you, every time you take a step, it should naturally become longer when you take a step. It's just how the foot is supposed to work. When you step down, it lengthens and then it becomes rigid and you can push forward, uh, away. Uh, but if you've, for example, if you wore shoes that has this automatic arch support for your whole life. Meaning that you have something blocking the arch. So every time you take a step, the foot wants to make itself longer. But if you have something blocking there, it can't, can't, you know, it can't lengthen like it's supposed to, which means that you train your foot in that position for 10, steps a day for years and years and years at last, it's going to be like, okay, I'm not lengthening, so I'll just stay in this. This, uh, this position, which then turns into a, something we call a compact foot or a rigid foot and takes some, you know, take some time to reverse that. I've personally had that, uh, been able to reverse that through wearing, of course, um, our footwear, but also doing exercises to, to, to get away from it.

Ryan: 10:52

And so I have to imagine like. From the perspective of an athlete, like you play tennis your whole life, like that constant, there's so much downstream implications from doing that consistently, like I'm thinking about like long distance runners who are constantly in these like overly supported shoes. And like, I get the need of that on like maybe race day for the extra speed, but, consistently like training with that, I could see how that might like atrophy, uh, the muscles and just like affect, you know, Your movement in general. Yeah. I mean,

melker: 11:27

every time I see, like you took the LeBron example, for example, every time I see that even Usain Bolt has something similar, you can barely see that it's a foot anymore. And all I'm thinking is like, wow, imagine how good or fast they could have been with a fully functioning foot. Right. I mean, because, because I don't doubt that, for example, the Usain Bolt will run faster if you give him spike shoes, uh, but what if that spike shoe was actually foot formed and allowed him to have more square inches touching the ground every time he takes a step? Right? I mean, that just makes, Logical sense that more square inches on the, on the ground should give you more force to push forward. I mean, to me, that's just logical. Um, and I'm not even a science guy. Well, I kind of am now because we're running a study, but it's, it's like, um, some of it is seems overly complicated, but at the end of the day, it's like. That just makes sense to me. That's

Ryan: 12:26

fascinating. So how we, yeah, I looked at like, when I was thinking about the LeBron example, I was thinking about like the, pain that you would experience, but it seems like based on what you're saying, there's probably a performance component there as well.

melker: 12:41

Yeah, for sure. And I, I don't think that, uh, for example, let's say you take a minimalist shoe. That is good. I don't think that's the answer for everything, especially not with modern sports that are, you know, for example, tennis, we, we play on highly superficial. Uh, surfaces and, and, you know, running on tracks and, uh, yeah, whatever it might be skiing, you know, you kind of need some stuff to, for it to work well on the skis. But I do think the one thing that is maybe apart from soccer, where you need to kick the ball with your foot. And maybe the shape of the toe box will help you in one way or another with, you know, curving the ball. But the shape of the toe box is one thing that I just can't get my head around. And nobody's ever been able to answer us. What is the functional benefit of a narrow toe box or like a symmetrical narrow toe box? is it

Ryan: 13:37

just aesthetics? Is that like why in general we

melker: 13:40

moved towards? Yeah. So, I mean, the way I've understood it is that it dates back to the industrial revolution where you wanted to start mass producing shoes and, um, they basically said, okay, how do we make. As many shoes as possible using just one mold. And they were like, let's just make, let's just make one mold. And we use that for both shoes. So, which means that the shoes had to become symmetrical, but the foot isn't symmetrical. So you could pump out double amount of shoes, but just using one symmetrical sole. And after that, I, my personal opinion is that it just became fashion and we've become so used to it. So over, you know, hundreds of years. Yeah,

Ryan: 14:21

that makes sense. It seems like all, all that type of stuff gets attributed back to like capitalism and just trying to squeeze out the most profit as possible. Like a lot of those downstream effects, whether we look at food or shoes or clothing and all this type of stuff, because

melker: 14:36

before that, I'll go back. Yeah, because before that, I think it was pretty obvious that we just, you know, we went to our local shoe maker cobbler and we said, okay, we want one right shoe for our right foot and one for our left foot. You know, similar to as you would go to your local farmer and be like, I need 2 gallons of milk, or you go to your local, um, whatever and get, get a jacket for the winter. But then, of course, everything became industrialized, big scale, large productions. How do you make it effective? How do you make as much money as possible? Yeah, it was doomed to, uh, be, um, uh, yeah, some quality issues with that.

Ryan: 15:18

I love the fact though, that like you see it in the, Twitter economy that we're in, like so many people are going back to, uh, creating things, you know, With the consumer in mind, more than maximizing profit, like the stuff that you're doing, it's so cool. How has the, process of creating wide been?

melker: 15:37

Yeah. Difficult. A lot of, a lot of difficult, uh, steps along the way. We started in 2021. And, um, took pretty much two years to get the first product out there. Learned a lot. Um, we started by just sitting on our porch. I mean, my brother and drawing on a piece of paper and, you know, just trying to like say, okay, what, what are we not happy with on the current market? What would we want to do differently? And, um, uh, yeah, uh, you know, and then of course it was COVID back then. So we, we couldn't really even travel. The world and see how things were. So we had to figure everything out from, from the living room, uh, more or less. So, uh, but yeah, many headaches. I think if we knew how difficult it would be, maybe we would never have started. So I think it's good to be a little bit naive sometimes. Uh, that's a great point, but, uh, yeah, I mean, um, Very happy with where we're at right now, especially with the new products coming and socks coming also in a couple of weeks. So that's a, it's a good, good time. Hell yeah. When do you guys launch? So we launched in May of 2023. So, um, uh, yeah. Uh, so we've been in, what is it? 8 months, 8, 9 months in business.

Ryan: 16:55

And, uh, has social media been like the main, growth channel for you guys?

melker: 17:00

Uh, yes and no, I would say the biggest one for us has been, um, to be on, uh, So my brother is my co founder and he's one of the, um, one of the best, uh, physio slash, uh, posture, uh, therapists in Sweden. So he's been on some major, major Swedish podcasts to talk about it. And that is kind of like. A lot of, a lot of interest, uh, to us. And I think that has been probably the main thing that helped us to get, get started. And then after that, it's, um, yeah, it's been social media, uh, and, um, be out there, talk about it as much as possible. So

Ryan: 17:45

Was that I was going to ask you, like, what was the start? What was the inspiration behind doing it? Was it that your brother was so deep into this world of, how the body moves, how the body is made to work?

melker: 17:56

It's actually funny. I mean, I, I met with, um, this organization called my foot function. Back in 2020, because I had started, I'd always had so much foot pain from playing tennis and every shoe I'd ever worn had pretty much hurt me. So, and then I, I found this page, uh, and I was like, I need to book a consultation with them. So I. And then I realized after, after I booked it, like two days before the session, I realized that we were in the same city here in Gothenburg, Sweden, because I thought they were based in the U S or UK or it was like, you know, stars were aligned. So, um, yeah, I met up with them in person instead. And after that, uh, at the end of that session, I asked him, cause they, they worked, they've worked with shoes for, I don't know how long I asked him. So what do you think is a good shoe for me? I realized he couldn't really give me a solid recommendation. He said, yeah, these are okay. And these are okay. And I was like, but how is nothing, how don't you have a perfect recommendation? So anyways, like, uh, I went home, I thought about it. And then a couple of months later, I just told my brother, I was like, why don't we, why don't we just try to make one? Wouldn't that be so cool to have our own shoe brand? Because we both had these issues and we, you know, you have a lot of, um, knowledge like within the body and you're, you're a good name within that field. And I have. A bunch of experience working in startups. Why don't we put those two knowledge pools together and, and do something. And he was like, look, it's funny. Like I thought about this two days ago. We should, we should definitely do that. So that's that same afternoon. We just took out a piece of paper and we started drawing and, uh, I think it was on that same day. My brother drew up the logo for the first time and, uh, it looks very similar to what it looks like now, but it's just like on a piece of paper and stuff. It's just kind of funny. It's

Ryan: 20:01

it's so crazy. Like I, two points I want to hammer on the one just being like creating things for yourself always seems like the safest bet in terms of finding that like product market fix, like if you know, you like it, there's odds are. Other people out there are similar to you and also need that thing. And then the second thing is like, dude, there's so many weird coincidences that, um, I see with people who like are on their path. Like it's, it's just crazy. Like that they were in your same city. And, um, I don't know. I don't know. It's like almost like, uh, almost goes above just mere coincidences. It's, it's a weird, it's a weird, uh,

melker: 20:43

weird thing. It's very cool. And I mean, even Even back then, what we said was, cause MyFootFunction was this like big organization that we were like, Oh, it's, you know, it's cool. Uh, we had, they helped us with programs for our foot and stuff. And then. A year later, when we, when we had our prototypes and stuff, they were like, Oh, we love what you guys are doing. Cause we had said from the beginning that it would be cool to make a shoe that they could actually like, because he couldn't recommend me anything. So why couldn't I make something that he could recommend, you know, that would be cool. And, uh, and then of course, like fast forward to November, 2023. Yeah. Uh, white footwork is together with my function doing the study in Sri Lanka. So I think it's, it's, it's been a super fun journey. And like you said, a lot of coincidences that almost doesn't even feel like coincidences because it's like, just so, so much fun to, uh, to think about it.

Ryan: 21:45

It's so weird. I, you, you hear it time and time again with people, about these like super almost, I don't even know how to describe them. I guess you would say like. Omens or signs or just things like pointing you in that direction of the way you're supposed to go it, you almost just don't know what to make of it.

melker: 22:04

Yeah, definitely. And this feels like one of those things where you, you know, I, I saw an Instagram post, it was actually this Instagram page called Squat University that Oh yeah, that, that, yeah, that reposted a post from my foot function. And I was like, that's cool. Checked out their page and then, you know, one thing leads to another, another, another, another. And all of a sudden we have a shoe brand working with them, doing a study in Sri Lanka, spreading this message out to the world, uh, about feet. So it's very, yeah, it's all, it's all very weird, but. It's, it's fun when synergies works like that, for

Ryan: 22:40

sure., it's such a hard thing now to like, have the confidence to start your own business in that way, to have the confidence that, what you're doing is actually going to work or be advantageous enough to follow through with it, cause it is so much work on the backend to make, this thought a reality, it takes a lot of confidence to actually follow through with it because the outcome is, is so uncertain.

melker: 23:05

So uncertain. I mean, it's some surreal stat, like I think it's, if it's 90 percent and that maybe not 90%, but it's a high percentage of businesses that don't make it past five percent that don't make it past five years or something like that might be 90%. I don't know, but it's, it's some surreal number like that. This just shows you how hard it is. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think. I'm not going to sit here and say that it's been like an easy ride because it definitely hasn't been so many, so many ups and downs, but I think I've felt in my gut from the beginning that we're onto something and that I'm very confident in what we're doing is also something different compared to what's always already on the market. And, uh, it will, you'll see that a lot more with what we're coming up with next. For example, we're making, um, Socks that are, you know, sued differently. So they're, they're foot shaped instead of the normal, normal socks. And then we're dropping a leather sneaker here soon. That it's like, I've, I mean, of course, I'm going to say that it's, it's an awesome shoe, but it's, it's, it's, it's literally the most comfortable thing I've ever put on my feet, like even, even more, even more comfortable than our old, uh, shoe. So, so I, um, and it's really fulfilling to. To have that sense of, um, it, I mean, I feel proud of it while at the same time, I'm like, okay, what's next? Cause like yesterday, for example, uh, I was out taking a walk with my girlfriend and she tried actually the new leather sneaker for the first time. So we took a, like an hour walk and, uh, and she's not someone who would ever wear our old shoe, for example. She's never even, she's never even tried it actually. Um, which is, which is kind of, which is kind of funny. But, but to me, to me, that's a good thing because that shows. That we kind of have already pre launch, uh, done what we wanted to do with this one is to attract another type of person that, uh, would not have worn our first shoe. Uh, and she, and, uh, she, she loved it. And she was like, this is super comfortable. I don't feel weird at all wearing it. And I was like, well, great. Cause that, that was what the purpose was. And, but then also she said, can you imagine that we're both like walking in your shoe brand right now? And it's, uh, it's kind of a weird thing because, uh, because I almost never think that way, but when you do think that way, it's kind of funny because it makes you realize, okay, we actually did take this from idea just popping up in our head to now, a couple of years later, we're actually walking in them. And I think that's, to me, that that's like inspiring to me myself to just be reminded that good ideas or whatever, it doesn't have to be a good idea, any idea that pops up in your head, you can actually just make it a reality a couple of years later, which makes it which breeds confidence in me as well, because now I'm like, okay, the winter shoe that we're going to make. Yeah, I know we can make it now. Or the running shoe that we want to make maybe next year. I know we can do it now, or we can make four different sneakers that we want to make next. We can do that. I like, I have no, I have no limitations in the way I think about those products now or socks. Yeah, of course we're going to make socks or maybe we'll make clothing one day. Of course we're going to make clothing, you know? So it just gives me a lot of, um, it's, it's almost like this five wheel effect of, you know, okay, we made one thing. Yeah. Worked made another thing worked. Now it's going to be so much easier to make another and another and another, and just two products that people actually like.

Ryan: 26:48

Such a great business lesson for people, especially who want to be like entrepreneurs, like you just need that first little feedback, um, that you actually can do this thing. And then the world kind of opens up and you, you start to be able to be like, have the confidence to move forward in these different directions.

melker: 27:06

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Ryan: 27:08

So the leather sneaker, is it going to be like, what's the use case of it? Is it going to be like a work shoe for people, like a casual wear shoe? When is it, going to be something that people use?

melker: 27:21

So our vision with this one has been to inspire people to wear something that is not only functional, but also cool. Cause I think one of the issues with the barefoot world or the minimalist footwear world is that, yeah, sure. They're nice. You can wear them. You kind of take a walk in the woods with them or you go to the grocery store with them, but you don't really want to go to the party with them. You don't really want to go to the office with them. You don't really want to hang in, you know, like looks wise, they're always going to lose to a Nike air force or an Adidas Yeezy or, you know, and I, I, I, We said from the beginning with this one that we want to have something that is comparable to those, but they don't destroy your feet at all, and they are way more comfortable, which means that I want genuinely like an 18 year old today to be able to be like, okay, yeah, sure. The Nike Air Force are cool, but I mean, these are, I think, equally cool, but they are, they actually don't hurt me. Yeah. And I, and I can actually look cool wearing something that feels way better. And I think that's what's necessary to kind of take this movement to the next level because it's also a huge, gap between, you know, going from a very, very, very cushioned, um, Nike or Adidas shoe to like a super minimalist sole. The gap is just huge. And it's also not even a good switch for a lot of people because people will get hurt. Uh, so, yeah, so, um, Uh, we just, yeah, we just wanted to make something extremely different. And I think it'll be a fresh, some fresh breath on the market.

Ryan: 29:16

Let's go. I'm looking forward to that. Once launch on that, you said it's like two weeks.

melker: 29:21

Yeah, right now it's going to be around March 3rd, I think somewhere around there.

Ryan: 29:28

When you think about like launching a new product, what is the plan for that? Like, how do you market that in a way to gain, to get people actually aware of this new thing that you're doing?

melker: 29:42

Yeah. So I think the way I go about it is that we really want to nurture the customers that we already have. First, And, uh, one thing for a business like us, it's very, very important that we get initial customers that actually loves the brand because they will go out and talk about it. So. You know, I'd say most of our business is from people referring, uh, people to us because they just love the, love the stuff. And they're like telling their friends, oh, you have to try this. You have to try that. I don't know how many, I couldn't tell you how many emails we get every week of people saying, oh, my. Cousin showed me your shoes or my my sister bought them or my boyfriend bought me a pair or It's it's all the time so that's that's number one nurture the customers that we already have and then Keep talking keep talking about it in on big platforms. I mean, um, yeah, my brother has been out recording some Some new podcasts on these big health podcasts, talk about the study that we did that we talked about before, but also about the new launch and get the word out there. And hopefully it's that ripple effect of, um, you know, people trying it. All I want is for people to give it a try and then, and then, because if they do that, I'm confident enough that we have created something that they will like. Not everybody, of course, it's never going to happen, but. Yeah. And then of course, the normal type of marketing with, uh, Facebook, Instagram ads and Google ads and that whole thing. But I think the biggest thing for me is just to nurture customers first and then talking about it. Cause it's also one thing that is a bit of a challenge, I would say is that when we, for example, have, uh, My brother talk on a podcast for an hour and a half. It's very, very difficult for people to be like, I don't want that. That's, uh, that's, uh, yeah, but it's very hard to convey that message in 30 seconds or 60 seconds. Uh, so it's very, very difficult, but we're getting better at it. It's, it's, uh, it's, a challenge, but, um, I think that that will just mature over time and we'll, we'll see what the best strategy is, but for now it's a mix of. I mean,

Ryan: 32:07

getting that message out is, is definitely like, it's no easy feat. It's no easy feat, especially on ads. Like it is, uh, like I I've been thinking about it for myself with the thing that I just created in the world of, portraying that message and getting people to actually buy into that in an ad is like I've been trying to figure it out and it's a quite overwhelming thing trying to be like, all right, here is uh, Here is just a quick 30 second ad Let's try and convey that it's, a no easy feat for

melker: 32:40

sure. And it's even actually even more difficult in the U S cause the, um, the competition is, is way bigger there. Like for example, for us, I think, I'm very sorry if I'm offending someone, but I think we're the only thing. Minimalist functional footwear brand from Sweden, uh, meaning that, um, there's not, I mean, there's some people that are like trying to give the same message as we do in social media, but it's not really, uh, catching any, any steam, but same level.

Ryan: 33:13

How's living in Sweden? How you used to live in the States, right?

melker: 33:18

Yeah, I lived in the States for five years for college and then stayed another year to, to work. Sweden is, uh, I mean, it's my homeland, of course. I, uh, kind of grew up here and in, in Brazil for a couple years. So, um, I went to, uh, to an American school in Brazil as well. But yeah, I mean, Sweden is I like Sweden. I don't, I don't love everything about it. I mean, for example, it's pretty dark, um, for, for a lot, for a lot of the year high out. I mean, yeah, but I, I overall, I like it. There's a lot of it, a lot of it that I do like, but a lot of it that I don't like. And I think having traveled quite a lot, I find that to be true with most places. Um, I, I, maybe if you ask me where I want to live in 10 years, I would probably. Be closer to the equator, I think somewhere, um, but pros and cons everywhere. Honestly,

Ryan: 34:19

it's just so much, like, especially for us who are into the health thing and it's just, it feels so much easier to be healthy in a warm weather climate. Like when you're actually, cause all that stuff, I mean, just like being outside sunlight walks, like they're just, it's so much more effortless when you're, when you're in an environment that being outside is actually, actually feels good. Yeah. And

melker: 34:41

even, even like grounding, I mean, like, I mean, even like full disclosure, I mean, when I, in the summer months, I'm grounding as much as I can, you know, walking barefoot on the rocks and the grass, I mean, the ocean as much as I can, but, you know, now. In the winter, I can't even remember the last time I grounded, honestly. I mean, I live, I live on the fifth floor of an apartment building in the middle of a Gothenburg here in Sweden. It's very, very difficult to find any way, way to, to, I mean, of course you can, you can be like, um, our friend Tristan in Wyoming and go outside with your, with your feet in the snow and stuff, but I just like, I think it's very difficult to get that to work. And, um, Salute to him for making it work, but, uh, I don't know. I think it's very difficult. And I think, uh, I mean, I'm already now looking forward to summer, but to get all of that again, but I, yeah, it's, it's difficult to focus on the things I can't focus on. Like, for example, I said every morning I sit in front of my red light for, um, 10, 15 minutes so that I do, I do what I can, but it's,

Ryan: 35:52

it's definitely much more difficult. You're you're a big sauna guy, right?

melker: 35:57

Love the sauna. Three, three times a week, minimum, uh, every, every week, uh, like 25 minutes. It's my, uh, it's my go to to really do that right after I hit the gym, which is, uh, my favorite thing. Dude,

Ryan: 36:12

sweating out those toxins, man, it's, uh, I think it makes a big difference when

melker: 36:16

it comes to the health stuff. Huge. Huge. I think. I, I feel so much better. When I do it, and of course there are a lot of studies that back that up. But it's always funny, like, I saw this thing on Twitter the other day. Because you can always find an argument why something is bad, right? No matter what it is. And, uh, and I hadn't seen much about the sauna before. I've heard people talk about it, you know, it shouldn't overdo it and whatever. But now it's like, okay, some guys writing that, um, the sauna is actually bad because it's too, too hot for your eyes. Right. And I'm just, stuff like that can just annoy me because at the end of the day, it's like people get so neurotic with health that they actually turn into. Unhealthy lonely people. I wrote this tweet the other day. Uh, I said something along the lines of like, why do biohackers never talk about good relationships and laughing and having a blast? Because a lot of them seem very lonely. And of course, I mean, I mean, I've said this example many times, like, if my grandma is baking me a cake, she's probably not using the best ingredients ever. Right? But me sitting, having a piece of cake with my grandma, I'm 100 percent sure that's more beneficial to my health than to be like, no, grandma, I'm actually you put, uh, you put a tablespoon of peanut oil in there. I can't, I can't have that, you know, um, or, or sure, maybe the sauna is not optimal for, for my eyes, but I think it's optimal for like 40 other things. So yeah, a lot of the, a lot of the health spaces is funny, but back to the basics, I think it's, it's just what I, what I go for.

Ryan: 38:10

That is the truth. I mean, even if you look at the people who like live a very long time, like Their lifestyle is far from perfect. I think the oldest person ever was a cigarette smoker, like, right? Just there. There's something to be said there about just like, enjoying life. Like, there was, um, I was listening to a podcast with Matthew McConaughey as the guest. I think it was on Aubrey Marcus's show and there was a line in the podcast that stuck with me because it was that time in my life where I was like, so I guess you would say neurotic about my health. Like, I was trying to. Yeah. I'm trying to optimize and all this shit and, uh, McConaughey was saying he was at dinner with this director and this older guy. And, um, there was like this big, beautiful. I think it was like a cake or something. And, uh, Matthew was eyeing it down and he, he wanted some, but then he was like, applying that self discipline to, to not indulge. And, uh, the director put his arm around him and He said, Matthew, the pleasure is good for you. And I think that the, uh, I think that there's some truth in that. I mean, we see how strong the placebo effect is, but, I think there's a lot of truth in just enjoying life. Really just, there's a spiritual component to enjoying life that helps you live a

melker: 39:27

longer time. For sure. And I mean, I, I remember seeing this clip of, uh, some guy who had visited the blue zones and he came back from Italy and, and he's like, um, Someone asked him, what have you, what have you learned? What have you applied to your own life? And he's like, well, there's a lot of things, but this one lady, she was 97 years old, looked very young and she started every day by eating an orange. So I've applied that now I'm now eating an orange every morning. And I was thinking to myself. Here's someone who is, looks pretty intelligent, but how do you think that that orange is what makes the difference? Maybe, you know, she was, she took a nice walk in the sun. Maybe she, maybe she grabbed that orange from a local tree. Maybe she sat and ate it with like her friends or family. It's not the orange per se. It's like everything that makes that orange into what it is. And you, and you automatically. Just eating an orange that is, yeah, it's like, uh, imported from maybe four countries away picked way too early off the tree and you're sitting like inside eating your orange. Like, that's not mimicking what she's doing to me. So I think, uh, there's a lot of that going on as well.

Ryan: 40:47

Totally. Totally. And you'd look at like, uh, Warren Buffett who like, I don't even know how old he is. I think he's in his. 90s at this point, but he, um, he has McDonald's and a Coke every single day. And, uh, you know, he's doing, he seems like he's doing just fine. He's in his nineties. So, he definitely has that, proof in the pudding there, but I think that just like that, that like, The stress factor plays such a big role and just the, I mean, maybe just the anti stress effects of eating a meal that you love are going to go much further than the ingredients of

melker: 41:22

course. And also, you know, Like stressing about food or different stuff. I mean, I, I, I'm, I, I wouldn't be perceived as someone who's pretty strict from, you know, normal, average people, but I, I'm, I would definitely have ice cream here and there and definitely, you know, indulge in nice dinners with my girlfriend and whatever. And I think that's, I mean, I wouldn't want to have it any other way because some of these, you know, biohackers out there, they seem to be, as I said, pretty lonely. Pretty much like they would decline that family dinner or friendship dinner to just sit alone and have their nutty pudding or whatever they would call it. Yep. And to go to bed at Exactly. That I've never understood either because when people are like, yeah, I go to bed at 8. 30 or 8 or 9 even like, but like when do you have time to nurture the relationships? Because when you're waking up at 4. 30, no one else is up like what I, and I'm not a huge night owl anyway, but. I'm like those hours at the night when you're not working, that's when you can like really hang with people that you love and like just going to bed at that before everyone else would be like a nightmare to me. I would feel like I would, I was missing out on life. So

Ryan: 42:51

yeah. It's funny too Cause, I forgot who it was, but it clicked in me when I was listening to them speak. I was like, most of these big, like popular biohackers outside of like Ben Greenfield, I guess, uh, they're all single, right? They all aren't in a major relationship. Like there's a, I don't know what it is exactly, but it's like, are you, you're stepping over dollars for pennies and like so many examples.

melker: 43:16

Totally. There's so many examples of that. So many. And I, that's something that I've been thinking about to myself quite for a long time, even before I started writing. Why that I've always been like, okay, I don't want to be like those people who are just so good at one thing, right? They are, you know, maybe they have this awesome company, but they, you know, they're, um, they're this lousy family man that, you know, has, um, uh, no relationship with their kids, or maybe they're only a family man has no success in life, you know, it's like, I don't want to be either of those extremes. Um, so I feel like there must be a way to be like. Kind of 80 percent good at everything, you know, it's created an awesome business. Have a great family, stay fit, you know, have nice friendships. You should be able to do all of those things and you should really strive to do all of those things. Because I mean, what's the, the alternative is so, so unattractive to me. I would literally hate to be mega successful with wide or whatever it is and just be like lonely that would, that would, that would be a nightmare nightmare. I would, I would rather have, like, a semi semi successful company and, um, just be like, have a nice family all day. All day

Ryan: 44:42

100%. Yeah. I mean, we don't look at the cost. It takes to do certain things that you look like a Michael Jordan or like, just a lot of these people who had that who are the best in the world at what they do. And you don't realize that like, they had to sacrifice everything else to get there So it's like, it's like, what are you really trying to, to achieve? What do you really want to want? But that balance there, it's, it's hard to achieve. It's hard to achieve. It's, it's not the easiest thing. Have you, have you struggled with that? Have you, because when you are starting that business and you are doing that thing, I can so easily see how it can get to the point where, you're neglecting a lot of the relationships around you or, a lot of other things for the success of the business. Has it been an interesting?

melker: 45:29

Yeah, yeah, definitely. When it comes to relationships. I mean, my girlfriend is, is, has her own business as well. So it's, we have a lot of understanding with between us. She has a bigger business than me for now, at least. Um, so that's, that's cool. But I think in general, the way I attack these things is that, for example, when it comes to training, I see that as work really, because going to the gym is like non negotiable for me. I, I, I. Because at the end of the day, I wouldn't even want to have a successful business if I was like a fat slob, to be honest, it's not, it's not, it's not worth that to me. So, going to the gym is literally blocked out of my, in my calendar. I can't, I can't take, I won't take meetings during those hours. It's the same, same hour. Like I do for now, I do tough lifting like three times a week and then I do conditioning two times a week and then I do. Mobility two times a week. That's blocked off in my calendar. I can't, I'm not going to do anything else at those, those hours. And then, uh, yeah, family, um, sometimes we'll take a hit, uh, when it's something important, but we make, we make up for it. And, um, yeah, uh, it hasn't been a huge problem so far, but of course, when you run a startup, shit can hit the fan at any time. So you kind of need to be. Uh, uh, on alert when, when things happen, but it's fine, really

Ryan: 47:06

totally, totally. And if you were to, uh, have a conversation with yourself before you started wide, right before you had that first meeting with your brother, um, Obviously, you're happy with how things have gone and you wouldn't want to change things, but if it was somebody like, like you, and you wanted to stress for them, the things you've learned since that time, what would that conversation look like?

melker: 47:33

The biggest thing would be, be very, very meticulous with due diligence on people you're working with and do not let anything slip through the cracks. Be very wary with contracts, especially if you're working with people overseas and, uh, put everything in writing. Don't have, uh, gentlemen's agreements with people that you don't know. Uh, those are some things. I mean, as I said, I I've worked with, with startups before, and I'm very much for You know, going to travel to people before you kind of do business with them. But since it was during COVID, it was impossible. So we kind of had to make decisions that we wouldn't otherwise have made. And, uh, yeah, kind of, you know, lost some. Some deals here and there, uh, some guy like still 20 K from us. And it's things that happen, but, but, um, but yeah, that that's what I would say to anyone starting a business. Just don't be lazy with the basics. And, uh, really get everything you can in writing for people that you trust.

Ryan: 48:54

That is the truth, yeah. I mean, my brother has similar stories as well with that type of stuff. Because, I mean, it's just so common that you really have to iron out those details. Because, um, you could Put yourself in some uncomfortable positions for sure. But it all makes you better in the end,

melker: 49:11

right? A hundred percent. You have to. I also believe that like, you know, you can read all the business books in the world, but at the end of the day, you kind of have to get out there and like, just be a doer and fail. Because a lot of business books are also written. I've consumed a lot of them, but they're all kind of written from a perspective that you have so much time on your hands. You know, it's like everything is written from a peacetime, peacetime perspective, but a lot of running a startup is, is a wartime because it, you know, shit can hit the fan at any time. And, uh, there's not much time to sit with different things. And so you kind of have to be out there, fail and yeah, just do your thing. Because theoretical learning can only take you so far. You kind of have to get out there and do the practical stuff.

Ryan: 50:06

It is such the truth. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I think about like the business acumen that's. I've gained from books versus from the experience of actually doing the thing and I've read so many books and haven't really been doing the thing for that long. And it's already like, doing the thing has taught me more than than the books. Just because, um, I mean, you just learn through doing you learn through actually going through the, the process. Going through the motions and getting out there.

melker: 50:35

Yeah. And also, I mean, you don't, I mean, I love reading books and getting wrong, but you don't retain a hundred percent of what you read, either you, I think you retain like 1 percent or whatever the number is, which is why it's great to go back and reread books sometimes for inspiration, if not anything else. But yeah, I think, uh, overall, I wish that's something probably, if you, if I could give myself advice, like 10 years ago, I would, I don't, I would've said. Yeah. Be more of someone who goes out there and tries more and not try to be a theoretical learner. Yeah.

Ryan: 51:12

Yeah. I think we all need to do that. There's so much like, it's so easy to fall in the trap of like mental masturbation with these things. Like even nowadays, like for so long, I was so into like, Learning and doing self development books and all this stuff and then now it's like, I can't even look at the, at the, at the books just because I, you've come, you come full circle and realize how much of it is literally just mental masturbation. And a

melker: 51:39

lot of them just say the same thing, right? I mean, when you, when you think about it, because. They're honestly, I feel like most of them are like 300 pages, but I feel like most of them could be like 10 pages. You literally learn the

Ryan: 51:52

lesson from the title. And yeah, in

melker: 51:55

most of them. Yeah. And then some of them, you understand that you need to fill the pages and it's like 40 stories of things that like, okay, maybe this wasn't necessary, but. But yeah, I mean, I, I think I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have not read as many books because I think it's valuable, but, but I think. But I think on top of that, uh, you can't, you can't really rely on it because you have to, you just have to make mistakes. You don't have to make all the mistakes. You can learn from other people's mistakes, but. Some mistakes. It's also good to get burned sometimes because it kind of stings more than reading a chapter.

Ryan: 52:33

Totally. Yeah. There's a quote from Neval where, where he says, um, all self help boils down to choosing long term over short term. I think that's exactly what you're just saying. It's like, this meta lesson that all of them are teaching you is essentially just do, uh, don't choose that instant gratification path.

melker: 52:53

Yeah, yeah. Delayed gratification is, uh, it's one, one, one of the keys. But also, um, but I think that ties into also working towards a purpose and a goal. And if you, and if you do that, then it's kind of easy to have that delayed gratification as well. But if you, if you, if you're, if you're chasing the short term, whatever that might be, then that that's more difficult. I mean, I see, I see wide as like my coming 20 year project. I don't have any, any visions of not being a part of wide. Uh, for a very, very long time. So hopefully that hopefully that, uh, happens as well.

Ryan: 53:35

Oh, yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's such an important note that like, when you have this mission and this thing that you truly believe in at a deep level, it makes, it makes the hard work so much easier because you know, that this is something you want to be doing for a long time and want to be good at for a long time. Like if you have that faith, it changes everything.

melker: 53:58

Yeah. And it also becomes easier and easier because the better, the better the business does, the more people we're helping and the more people will tell us that we're helping them, which means that it becomes this like feedback loop of like, okay, we're realizing we're actually making a difference here for people and making a difference for people is what I have always motivated me the most, um, and whatever I've been doing, I've honestly never been that motivated by money. It's never been the thing that motivates me more. It's always been, you know, helping people in whatever way that might be. And in some ways that's not always a good trait because you kind of put other people before yourself. But, uh, but I think, yeah, it's very, very rewarding because When, when we get those messages from people that are like, look, you really helped me. And I realized that, okay, no one else is doing what we're doing right now. We are actually necessary for this whole thing to, this mission to be pushed forward, both through the types of shoes that we're making and releasing soon, but also the study. I mean, we literally did the biggest study ever on shoes effect on feet. Which is kind of like, it's kind of insane to think that, okay, we actually did that. And it just started as an idea in one of our heads and now we've done it. And, um, and if, and if we present the data, right, it's possible that people can talk about this for the coming 100 years, which is kind of cool because we're right now. We 100 years ago. And that is what the one I talked about in the beginning with like, you know, comparing African feet towards people in Switzerland, or my memory might be off there, but, and a lot of brands within our category, we'll talk about that still. And it was like bad photography. You know, we went there with like top class equipment, planted pressure plates. 3d scanners of feet, like the, the, the difference in quality of data that we have compared to what they had back then. It's just mind blowing. So that's a very, very fulfilling to, to think of it that way. So we've,

Ryan: 56:16

we definitely hit on, a bunch of things that. That kind of answer this question, but I'm curious if there's anything else when it comes to taking that idea in your head and turning it into reality. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you think is fundamental to bringing in that idea into reality?

melker: 56:36

I don't know about burning it into reality, but I would say 1 thing that is. Mega important for me and for us as a team is to stay true to the mission and we So far, we haven't had to remind ourselves much of it because it's been so apparent But there's so many businesses that start out with one kind of model or vision or mission But as soon as the money gets bigger opportunities arise Accusations come knocking on the door, things change, and I actually really hate that. And that's why we've said from the beginning that we have this motto called function first, always. And we, we, we say that so often that it's become so deeply ingrained to everything that we do when we design a new shoe or whatever, because why we even started wide in the first place was because we thought that other brands were actually budging on the quality, on the function. And wanting to go for sales first and I, and I, and that's what, and if that hadn't happened, why it wouldn't exist today. So I never want to be, become someone, and I want people to hold me to, to this because I don't ever want to be a brand that starts making, for example, more narrow shoes or budge on the shape of the toe box for it to look more narrow or. Whatever it might be just to sell more shoes, then I'd rather sell less, less shoes, honest, honestly, like me, me and my brother joked about this in the beginning of when we got our first batch of shoes, we said, look, either this will be a success or we will have a lot of shoes for free for us and our family for the rest of our lives. So, so, uh, hopefully, I mean, Good enough that, uh, luckily enough that, uh, people have bought them. But, uh, but yeah, I think that that's, that's the number one thing. I hope, yeah, that makes sense. Absolutely makes

Ryan: 58:37

sense. Milker, thank you so much for doing this, brother. This was a lot of fun and it was, it was good to finally get on the phone and talk. We've been, uh, we've been DMing and talking on Twitter for a long time. So it's good to, uh, actually

melker: 58:50

converse. Yeah, my pleasure, man. Thanks for having me.